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Talk:Avengers: Endgame
Move Title of the movie uses Roman numerals, per the logo: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1DeU3FCIAAUtQE.jpg:large LoveWaffle (talk) 18:56, October 28, 2014 (UTC) :New title potentially finally revealed. -- Annabell (talk) 01:18, April 25, 2017 (UTC) ::She only refers to it as "Gauntlet", so it could just be a working title of the project during production, or if it is part of the full official title, it could either be Avengers: Infinity Gauntlet or even Avengers: The Gauntlet. ::KalKent (Anton) (Earth-1218) (talk) 05:57, April 25, 2017 (UTC) TRN? There are alternate timeline characters in this film. Do we make a TRN to sort them out? :Answer to above, only when an official TRN is released in some form I would think--Marvelous25 (talk) 12:42, April 27, 2019 (UTC) ::We either give it a TRN, or since said alternate timeline was temporary, treat the characters who went into the future (Thanos & co.) as temporal paradoxes. ::KalKent (Anton) (Earth-1218) (talk) 17:35, April 27, 2019 (UTC) :::I'd contend that there are three types of time travel incidents in the film. ::::1. Time travel to the past that did not change the timeline. This is what the vast majority of the film consisted of, since Steve went back and replaced everything at the exact moment it was taken, I believe there's no TRN necessary for the 1970, 2013, and 2014, as any and all potential temporal paradoxes were resolved and the timeline continued uninterrupted. ::::2. Time travel to the past that did change the timeline. This happened twice, once when Loki escaped in 2012, which although this alternate timeline was overwritten as quickly as it was created by the side trip to 1970, I could still see a possible TRN there for roughly eleven named characters (Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, Hulk, Black Widow, Hawkeye, Loki, Brock Rumlow, Jack Rollins, Jasper Sitwell, & Alexander Pierce), and once when Steve returned to 1945 and lived a full life, of which only a single character (Peggy Carter) is briefly seen. ::::3. Time travel to the future that created an unresolved temporal paradox. This happened once, when Thanos brought his army from 2014 to 2023, affecting roughly seven named characters (Thanos, Gamora, Nebula, Ebony Maw, Corvus Glaive, Cull Obsidian, & Proxima Midnight); however, since my first point contends once Steve went back and set things straight that they came from an uninterrupted past of Earth-199999, they are thus not actually alternate iterations and as such no TRN is required, rather they'd have temporal paradox qualifiers instead. :::Anyway, that's my thoughts on the matter, hopefully as clearly expressed as possible. -- Annabell (talk) 17:50, April 27, 2019 (UTC) ::::It's very probably that Steve back in time after all this events, because the only thing he could do to prevent the timeline from being changed would be to prevent the team of the future from interacting with other characters from present. ::::2012: Loki steals with Tesseract and Captain changes the course of Hydra's plan with the scepter. Even if he returns the scepter to the Hydra, will change the whole relationship between them and Captain America. ::::2013: Few changes were did. If Frigga ignorate the dialogues with Thor and Captain inserted Aether in Jane's body again, maybe no changes will occur. ::::2014: This is the biggest change. Thanos, Gamora, Nebula, Ebony Maw, Corvus Glaive, Cull Obsidian, & Proxima Midnight will not exist anymore, Peter Quill also did not catch the Orb. Probably, Captain just put the Orb back in the Temple of Morag after this events. ::::1970: Some very small changes. Tony interacted with his father and some Pym particles were stolen, but probably the Tesseract was destroyed to extract the Space Stone. Bobby stronda (talk) 20:09, April 27, 2019 (UTC) :::::My thoughts are somewhat similar to Annabell's the 1970 and 2013 had minimal timeline changes and could in theory have always happened on Earth-199999 without any major changes so I don't think need a TRN. The 2012 timeline splits seemingly when Cap steps in the elevator and when Loki teleports away with the cube from my recollection of the lobby scene this means Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, Hulk, Loki, Brock Rumlow, Jack Rollins, Jasper Sitwell, & Alexander Pierce all are now a separate timeline, especially with Captain America and Loki. Cap returning the stone still wouldn't necessary fix the timeline as Loki still escaped and Cap still fought himself, which is future self would have remembered if it happened on 199999'2014' has the biggest changes and is then when timelines changed, the Red Skull part could have happened on 1999999 without any changes. The divergence point is the Nebula glitching out and now Thanos, Gamora, Nebula, Ebony Maw, Corvus Glaive, Cull Obsidian, Proxima Midnight all are in a separate timeline, one which now may be considered to no longer contain them at the movie's conclusion. I am unsure if Cap returning the orb back to its place would fix this timeline back to 199999 since Nebula would have still be captured. Cap going back to Peggy is the hardest to place, since Cap appears at the end, the implication could be that he was always there aging whilst his young version was superheroing around, though i don't know the year he went back to and how altered the show would be :::::tl:dr version: Only two TRN's are needed 2012 once they enter the lobby and 2014 Thanos and his crew. Temporal Paradoxes is also a possibility however I don't think Cap could have fixed it back to 199999 by just returning the stones. Copeinator123 (talk) 21:24, April 27, 2019 (UTC) ::::::Ancient One and the Hulk did establish that by bringing said stones back to their original time periods, would make said alternate timelines not exist anymore. So the stuff in 2012 and 2014 (including knocking out Star-Lord), would become just temporal, and be erased from existence. And I know that rules regarding alternate universes and time travel varies, but I'm basing it off of what the movie establishes. ::::::KalKent (Anton) (Earth-1218) (talk) 21:40, April 27, 2019 (UTC) :::::::True, but Ancient One didn’t consider the possibility of someone from her timeline traveling to then dying in the future. If the previous theory of 2014 Thanos and co. no longer existing in that timeline is true,. Then they are either alternate versions or temporal paradoxes that need their own page, separate from the originals. 2014 Gamora will likely be relevant in GOTG Vol. 3 so she also needs a separate page. ::::::: CaptainJJC (talk) 22:58, April 27, 2019 (UTC) @Marvelous25 Educate me, "Official" TRN? As an it's Marvel making these numbers, not us? CaptainJJC (talk) 22:34, April 27, 2019 (UTC) :But if the alternate timelines would cease to exist, what happens to Gamora? Zoe Saldana was confirmed to have a bigger role in Guardians Vol 3 and if sacrifices for the Soul Stone are not refundable, the real Gamora is gone forever. Star-Lord is looking for the Gamora that came from the alternate timeline. And if the alternate Gamora will return, the 2014 timeline would need a TRN. SeanWheeler (talk) 22:35, April 27, 2019 (UTC) ::My contention is that those who traveled forward from 2014 aren't alternate iterations, rather temporal paradoxes from Earth-199999's past, like the difference between Ahura Boltagon (Earth-616) and Ahura Boltagon (Kang) (Earth-616). -- Annabell (talk) 23:01, April 27, 2019 (UTC) :::So you want them to have a second parenthesis before the Earth-199999? What word would we use in that parenthesis? Time Heist? Endgame? 2014? Nah, I think we should pull a Days of Future Past and make a TRN for the new timeline. The Ancient One did say the word "reality" and there have been hints of a multiverse when it came to the Quantum Realm. The Avengers didn't change their reality, they created a new one in their time heist. SeanWheeler (talk) 03:11, April 28, 2019 (UTC) ::::You're confusing the two. The qualifier for the temporal paradoxes would probably be something like (Time-Displaced), characters completely separate from those from alternate realities, which would have TRNs should they be deemed significant enough for articles. -- Annabell (talk) 03:26, April 28, 2019 (UTC) :::::I would argue that the characters from 2014 are from a separate timeline, because in the original Earth-199999 timeline Nebula never showed her future self's memories, causing Thanos and the Black Order to intervene. Even if Steve Rogers returned the Power Stone right after where Nebula and Rhodes took it, this still would have happened, so I don’t believe this timeline was canceled out. Chubby Potato (talk) 04:52, April 29, 2019 (UTC) ::::::If we take the Ancient One at her word, then each and every single time travel incident (Clint in 201X, Thor/Rocket in 2013, Cap/Hulk/Tony/Scott in 2012, Cap/Tony in 1970, Rhodey/Nebula/Clint/Natasha in 2014 and Cap in 194X) is a branched timeline from Earth-199999. This is consistent with Earth-TRN676 being shown as a branch from the MCU in 2018 (similar to what TRN's for all of these and the upcoming "What If?" tv series would be), rather than being completely erased when the Destruction of Earth was prevented. ::::::Bruce argues that by putting back the Stones, they never "chronologically" left which would prevent disaster, but that doesn't confirm that returning the Stones (or Cooper/Nate's catcher's mitt) would fuse both realities into one again. The Ancient One's diagram does do this when Bruce reinserts the Stone, but that could just be because he was the one manipulating the diagram at the time, and it could also mean that these timelines will simply, inevitably head towards a similar destination as the MCU (Decimation at Thanos' hands), not that they are the MCU once again. We've seen it countless times in the comics, many realities that are identical to each other save for one small thing. ::::::So I propose we give each of these 6 timelines a TRN, because even a difference as small as Frigga seeing Future Thor, or the Asguards chasing Rocket, or Howard getting parenting advice from Tony, or Clint stealing his kid's baseball gear are all still differences. However, I'd settle for TRNs for the three most drastically changed timelines; 2012, 2014 and 194X. Edward Zachary Sunrose (talk) 01:48, April 30, 2019 (UTC) :::::::This is certainly the wrong place to speculate, but... If Bruce did bring back Natasha as he claims he tried to, chances are Gamora would be brought back as well. Remember, Natasha died on Vormir, so if it's anything like the Snap, she'd wake up on Vormir. Same as Gamora. Strange probably wouldn't have thought to look for anyone there as he didn't know where Vormir was. There could still be hope that they're both back. On the flip side, Tony's snap could've killed all of Thanos' forces, or it could've dusted anyone from Thanos' timeline, including that Nebula's corpse, and the alternate Gamora. The Guardians could be hunting for the Earth-199999 Gamora and possibly even find Natasha alongside her. Edward Zachary Sunrose (talk) 01:54, April 30, 2019 (UTC) ::::::::Something I’ve seen is that just because a TRN 'can' be created doesn’t mean it 'should'. Sometimes they are considered too minor, and I think that’s the case here. I think we only need a TRN for the larger changes, in this case 2012, 2014, and maybe 1970. Chubby Potato (talk) 04:16, April 30, 2019 (UTC) :::::::::Well, we don't really need a TRN for 1970. Definitely ones for 2012 and 2014, though. And the Russos confirmed in a Q&A in China that the timeline we see at the end with Steve and Peggy dancing is in fact an alternate timeline. So we now know of at least 5 alternate realities that branch off from the MCU. 2012, 2014, Alternate Steggy, 2091 and the Framework. Framework already has an item page at my request, and I've been slacking on it and its related pages, and 2091 also has a reality page. So we just need 2012, 2014 and Alternate Steggy, which is almost certainly set in the 1940's.Edward Zachary Sunrose (talk) 00:36, May 1, 2019 (UTC) ::::::::::That Q&A clears things up. It says Steve lived his life in the alternate universe, and had to make another jump to give his shield to Sam. In the cases of 1970 and 2013 after the stones are returned, they run pretty much the same as the main Timeline (assuming the Space Stone and Reality Stone were returned to their original forms, the Tesseract and the Aether respectively). I don’t see how returning the Power Stone would negate the 2014 timeline as Nebula still glitched out and Thanos would have seen everything. Same goes for the 2012 timeline with the Mind and Time Stones as Loki still has the Tesseract. Chubby Potato (talk) 02:29, May 1, 2019 (UTC) :::::::::::Here the Russo brothers confirm that Steve's time travel in 1940s has created an alternate reality. Duellante magic (talk) 07:06, May 1, 2019 (UTC) Be certain to use the proper TRN for each alternate character: * Earth-TRN732 - Ant-Man, Captain America, Hulk, and Iron Man travel back to 2012 * Earth-TRN733 - Rocket and Thor travel back to 2013 * Earth-TRN734 - Black Widow, Hawkeye, Nebula, and War Machine travel back to 2014 * Earth-TRN735 - Captain America and Iron Man travel back to 1970 * Earth-TRN736 - Steve Rogers travels back to 1948 and lives a full life If you're not sure which one to use, don't hesitate to ask a question. -- Annabell (talk) 19:42, May 1, 2019 (UTC) :What about a timeline that was visited by Hawkeye during first time travel? -- ::Well, Earth-TRN736 has just been confirmed by Markus and McFeely while speaking with Fandango to be set in 1948, three years after Steve's "death", a full year after the last time we see Peggy, and a full year before Peggy starts running the Playground, per Agents of SHIELD Season 4. However, they contradicted the Russos by claiming this isn't an alternate timeline. I suggest we keep it as a TRN, however. And to answer whoever left the unsigned comment about the timeline Hawkeye visited, even though we have three native characters confirmed (Cooper, Lila, Clint) and one seen (Lila), that timeline is still pretty inconsequential, as nothing radically changes it.--Edward Zachary Sunrose (talk) 00:03, May 4, 2019 (UTC) Earth-TRN736? ok, Captain america Travel to the past to live a nomal life with Agent Carter, On the surface this seems ok, two different universes, But since that same Captain America appears at the end of the movie. And the end of the movie takes place on Earth-199999, Does not that mean that Earth-TRN736 and Earth-199999 are the same universe? TheHighWorldofficial (Earth-1218) (talk ) 8:49 PM, May 1, 2019 (UTC) :You can see the interview where the Russos explain why that's not the case here. -- Annabell (talk) 01:01, May 2, 2019 (UTC) ::But I think he could use the Pym Particles to travel back to the original timeline. He also appears with the shield, which probably took on the other timeline, because his was broken.Bobby stronda (talk) 03:00, May 4, 2019 (UTC) :::Again, the interview suggests neither of those things happened. -- Annabell (talk) 03:08, May 4, 2019 (UTC) Avengers Team Ant-Man, Nebula, Rocket, Captain Marvel and Okoye can be considered members of the Avengers? I think that Ant-Man, Nebula and Rocket are members because they participated in Time Heist. But Captain Marvel only helped to ambush Thanos and later spends all her time on other planets, and is the last to appear in the final battle. Okoye says that she was in Africa, but I think it can't be said if she participated in any important mission related to the team.Bobby stronda (talk) 01:39, May 7, 2019 (UTC) :Black Panther is more of an Avenger than Okoye. SeanWheeler (talk) 20:30, May 7, 2019 (UTC) :During the 5 year period when BP was dusted Okoye was working with what remained of the avengers in Nat's makeshift avengers team. BP fought them in CACW, helped out the anti-accords side of the avengers and then, like Okoye and the rest of his people, he fought in Infinity War and Endgame, so I don't see how he's 'more of an avenger' than Okoye is, based on the events the two of them have been involved in so far they're either both Avengers or just people who helped out as needed/honorary avengers cause of the help they provided.--Marvelous25 (talk) 21:06, May 7, 2019 (UTC) Avengers disband Since when did the Avengers disband? ARZ100 (talk) 22:28, May 9, 2019 (UTC) :Spider-Man: Far From Home established that at least in some form, The Avengers are still a thing. The parts about them disbanding should be removed. HBK123 (talk) 09:30, August 3, 2019 (UTC) ::Far From Home actually doesn't provide an answer. The only mentions of the Avengers is with regards to people not knowing if they're still active. --The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 22:57, August 3, 2019 (UTC) :::In the same way, Endgame provides zero edidence of The Avengers disbanding. It's really a speculation at this point, so why not sitck with status quo until more info is made available? HBK123 (talk) 04:24, August 4, 2019 (UTC) Who would the current members be though? Captain America referred to everyone on the battlefield as avengers so do we count them all, the ones before the battle, the ones in infinity war? There is no way to tell who is a current member so we may as well keep it as disbanded until a future movie says more on the issue. TheDemon08 (talk) 14:58, August 10, 2019 (UTC) Helping Let me help.--Trevor Jaco 0 (talk) 23:43, September 7, 2019 (UTC)